We Are the World

Bingo | July 3, 2008, 9:10am | #

They hate us for our freedom

Citizen Nothing | July 3, 2008, 9:15am | #

Oh, they get it, JMR. They just don't care. Why should they?

J sub D | July 3, 2008, 9:17am | #

It's all part of the "humbler" foreign policy we were promised in '00.

Is it just me or do others perceive that the Bush II administration attracts arrogant pricks like shit attracts flies?

Episiarch | July 3, 2008, 9:22am | #

Why does this surprise anyone? Our government is out of control and very, very powerful. This is just he next logical step in using that power. They can push smaller countries around know it.

So they do.

anarcho-capitalist-type libertarian | July 3, 2008, 9:25am | #

Sorry, Bingo's the winner. (Voting's for tyrannies.)

MP | July 3, 2008, 9:33am | #

Guy Montag said:

Dang Radley, aren't you keeping up? SCOTUS extended US law to the whole world, including Club G'tmo about a week ago. Thought that was one you liked?

Dang Guy, isn't it obvious that Radley was referring to the Administration's perspective on US law?

TallDave | July 3, 2008, 9:37am | #

the federal government's continuing efforts to assert U.S. jurisdiction all over the world.

Well, that only makes sense now that everyone in the world has our Constitutional rights.

Episiarch | July 3, 2008, 9:46am | #

Well, that only makes sense now that everyone in the world has our Constitutional rights.

Yes, that's exactly what the ruling said. Distort much?

Warren | July 3, 2008, 9:53am | #

Well, that only makes sense now that everyone in the world has our Constitutional rights.

What the fuck is that suppose to mean? How do the people of Burma have our Constitutional rights?

Auslander | July 3, 2008, 9:57am | #

Longtime poster here, I am having to use a pseudonym because I work for a Swiss bank. This shit is getting intense, it's been on the front page of all the papers here, even the normally staid Neue Zurcher Zeitung. You know things are weird when you can't catch your tram on the Paradeplatz because the SF camera crews are hogging the sidewalk for their evening news reports (this is where I change trains).

I'm glad that Cato and the WSJ have covered this, as it has serious implications for global liberty. Whatever you may think of money laundering, KYC regs, the IRS's QI program that basically bribes the banks with the offer of skimming the withholding tax, or the fine line between tax evasion and tax fraud as defined in Swiss law, the ability for capital to move freely around the world is critical to keeping governments honest.

If you can't vote at the precinct (or feel the two-party system is stacked against you), you can always vote with your feet or with your dollar.

If I ever go back to grad school I would like my thesis to be on the role of offshore banking in comparative economic development -- there is so much hooey and snake oil salesmen out there on the internet. Just look at the Amazon prices of the offshore banking books to see what I mean.

Guy Montag | July 3, 2008, 10:03am | #

Does this mean that all of the rest of the world will begin using real money, rather than the ~70% of the volume done in $USAian now?

P Brooks | July 3, 2008, 10:09am | #

Watch yer ass, Liechtenstein- you're next.

Jake Boone | July 3, 2008, 10:11am | #

The Germans were the big bad guys of the first half of the 20th Century, and the Russians the big bad guys for the latter half.

Looks like for the first half of the 21st Century... it's us. Goddammit.

Auslander | July 3, 2008, 10:20am | #

So Auslander, are there any major Swiss leaders loudly and openly decrying the U.S. actions?

Not really, although I confess that my german is perhaps not good enough to get the finer points on the editorial page. Nobody wants to offend the big bad wolf (USA).

As to the bankers, they have simply established offices in Singapore, where the secrecy laws are even tougher than in CH. So far we have been reluctant to advise our clients to move their assets there, though I predict we will "get the memo" any day now.

As to Liechtenstein, they can run but they can't hide. LGT has already had their customer data stolen by the German government, and LLB has had a similar breach. The third and last bank in Vaduz (VP Bank) has so far dodged this bullet, but the barroom talk suggests they simply haven't been caught yet. When a foreign government offers you millions of dollars to spy on your employer, the threat of swiss prosecution can't compete (e.g., the LGT case) -- especially when Germany will turn around and resell the same data to the Netherlands!

Guy Montag | July 3, 2008, 10:21am | #

Auslander,

SO the real story here is that the Swisse government is the real culprit and the USAian feds are just a sideshow?

TallDave | July 3, 2008, 10:28am | #

The Germans were the big bad guys of the first half of the 20th Century, and the Russians the big bad guys for the latter half. Looks like for the first half of the 21st Century... it's us.

Yeah? Let me know when start the concentration camps and forced famines. I want some pictures for the grandkids to condemn.

Citizen Nothing | July 3, 2008, 10:39am | #

Do the forced, ethanol-derived, famines have to be in this country, TallDave?

Fluffy | July 3, 2008, 10:46am | #

I suspect that there are US Tax Code violations that could be done if certain transactions are not properly reported, even by people outside of the USA.

If I'm a banker in a foreign country and an American comes to me to make deposits, I should not have to give a shit if he's hiding income from the American government or not.

The fact that someone writes the words in the US tax code "Yes you do have to care" means absolutely nothing to me.

If the Iranian government started arresting US citizens overseas for actions they took in the United States that were legal by US law and then said, "Hey, it says here in our laws that we can do this" I don't think anyone here in the US would be very impressed by that argument.

Jake Boone | July 3, 2008, 10:48am | #

Yeah? Let me know when start the concentration camps and forced famines. I want some pictures for the grandkids to condemn.

Good point, TallDave. I guess everything we do is A-OK, so long as we're not committing genocide!

Jake Boone | July 3, 2008, 11:01am | #

Yes, I think America falls somewhere short of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.

Well, just because we aren't up to Chapter 36 in the Bumper Correspondence Course of Totalitarian Atrocities doesn't mean we aren't quickly working our way through the course. We've done the exercises at the end of Lesson 3 ("Civil Rights Violations"), Lesson 5 ("Propaganda"), Lesson 9 ("Invasions"), and Lesson 12 ("Torture"); now we're working on the initial exercises in Lesson 14 ("Declaring Dominion Over Other Nations").

I'm not saying we're as far along as the Germans or the Russians. I'm just saying we're at the head of the class this year.

Citizen Nothing | July 3, 2008, 11:13am | #

Tuesday's WSJ had an interview with Grigory Yavlinsky, founder of the liberal Yabloko party in Russia, which has nearly been hounded out of existance by the Putin regime. He mentioned the decline of the U.S. as a role model for movements such as his, which made me sad.
I'm afraid our moral stock has fallen mightily since the heady days of the late 80s and early 90s.

Citizen Nothing | July 3, 2008, 11:23am | #

If you gotta have a LOTR analogy, Pro L., that's a good one.

Guy Montag | July 3, 2008, 11:23am | #

I'm afraid our moral stock has fallen mightily since the heady days of the late 80s and early 90s.

The good old days, when Reagan was Hitler . . .

Pro Libertate | July 3, 2008, 11:25am | #

Citizen Nothing,

I agree. Even as a global power, most of the last sixty years we've served as an inspiration rather than as something to fear. It's a little schlocky, but I really buy into that shining light on the hill crap. We have the power to be on top and be the good guys. You know, the Gandalf of the world ☺

Bingo | July 3, 2008, 11:41am | #

We need access to those funds owned by US citizens in foreign countries or the terrorists have already won.

TallDave | July 3, 2008, 11:49am | #

The good old days, when Reagan was Hitler...

And the Soviet Union's "economic freedom" was just as good as our "political freedom," and was going to be around for centuries so we better try to get along with them.

Citizen Nothing | July 3, 2008, 12:02pm | #

"Free markets don't cause famines."
BINGBINGBING!
TallDave finally scores a point in this round.

MarktoMarket | July 3, 2008, 12:47pm | #

I'd like to echo Auslander's point and correct Guy Montag of the misperception that the swiss government is to blame (I am also a foreign banker).

The US is to blame, clearly, but Auslander's point is that ten years ago UBS could have just said "fuck off" without having their ambassador called on the carpet of the State Dept. There are two problems here:

1) the Bern crowd is not willing to stick their necks out the way they used to (witness the SNB kerfluffle -- it is VERY rare for a private banking executive to criticize the central bank).

2) UBS bought PaineWebber and is beholden to the IRS, DoJ, and (to a much lesser extent) Bernanke for their continued good graces. In a worst case scenario, the US would simply revoke UBS's license to do business in the US. One of the second tier swiss banks such as Julius Bar might not care so much -- they have only a sales office in the US -- but a global firm such as UBS/PaineWebber has a lot of mom-and-pop business that they can't afford to lose. (In this context, mom-and-pop means clients with $250K-$1M in liquid assets.)

Pro Libertate | July 3, 2008, 1:01pm | #

BP,

Well, we obviously need to give the Ring to a hobbit. I guess we should've voted for Kucinich, after all!

MarktoMarket | July 3, 2008, 2:49pm | #

Pro Lib:

We have one of them treaty thingees: it's called the Qualfied Intermediary procedure. This was agreed by the swiss and the 'mericans shortly after 9/11.

Basically, as a swiss banker you have to follow the KYC routine (get a copy of their american passport) and give the customer an IRS W-9 (request to verify their SSN/TIN). This varies by bank, but all of the big ones are signatory to the agreement. You even get a special EIN for use as a QI (never mind the fact that you're not actually an "employer", as if you needed more evidence that the taxation of unearned income is immoral).

You get an agreement from the customer that he will file an OFAC form with the IRS by 30 June of each year (listing all foreign bank accounts worth more than $10K). Whether or not he actually *does* this is not really any of your business (wink, wink), but at least you have covered your own ass by warning him. The swiss banking laws still apply -- an order from a US court means nothing -- but if the swiss court agrees then banking secrecy can be broken.

The weird thing is that even if UBS comes to a voluntary agreement with the feds, they can still be prosecuted under swiss law if they divulge certain info. As usual, the lawyers will hash it out. UBS has so far tried a number of dodges in an attempt to make this problem go away:

1) the tax treaty signed by CH does not apply in Liechtenstein -- while FL is a protectorate it is still a sovereign nation. Not sure if they'll make any headway -- allegedly the accounts were opened in Zurich rather than in Vaduz (and I think some were even opened over the telephone from New York).

2) if we agree to turn over our customer list it will list only "natural persons" of american citizenship, and not accounts held in trust. Needless to say, some of the overseas trusts can be rather opaque. They'll probably win on this front.

3) if the customer opened his account before 2002 then our hands are clean because back then we didn't ask for social security numbers. This one is a tossup -- on the one hand the bank knows that their customer is an american citizen, but most customers have their mail held at the bank. In the case of UBS, american customers are prohibited from executing transactions (or even getting account info) if they are calling from a telephone in the US. They closed the park ave. private banking office back in 1999, I think, and have always advised clients to come to CH if you'd like to review your account.

So I could see an argument where the banks would say "sorry, we tried to call the telephone number given us by the client back in 1985, but it was disconnected". Rest assured that whatever they agree with the IRS will be fought tooth and nail when it comes to carrying out the agreement.

In short, swiss banking secrecy is over for americans (just like it ended for EU citizens a few years ago). Take your money to Singapore, which is rapidly stealing market share from the swiss.

quasibill | July 3, 2008, 4:31pm | #

I think the saddest thing is that we have fallen so far that we need to re-define fascism as "committing genocide".

So long as we don't have the ovens, we're still good guys, right? It doesn't matter if we killing people all over the world, claiming the right to force our will anywhere, at anytime, and if you don't agree, you're an enemy of the state. That one group of people in the world have rights against being abused by our government, but that another group, based solely upon characteristics they can't control, are sub-human and entitled to no rights as against our government. Hey, but we have only the improvement of the world at heart, right?

People need to read a little bit and find out what it was like in the late days of the Weimar Republic. If you do, the parallels will (or at least should) be a little chilling. Remember - by the time they were implementing the Final Solution, it was too late.